# Microevolution is macroevolution (Is evolution true? Part 7) ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7.webp]] **Creator:** Joel is Curious · **Published:** 2026-10-25 · **Length:** 2:55 (YouTube Short) · [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A) > Caption source: **YouTube auto-generated English captions (en-orig)**, fetched with yt-dlp (android_vr client). No TubeAlfred credits were used. Timestamps are from the captions. The short opens with a clip of Kent Hovind's "The Age of the Earth" seminar over a card ("Still a dog! That's not evolution, only variation"), then a vertical talking-head take outdoors (plaid shirt, gray beanie) with burned-in captions and overlay cards: a skull quiz (collie and pug, lion and tiger), "Great Danes and Chihuahuas", Daphne Major and the two finches, an Ensatina salamander, and a cat family tree. Screenshots are one about every 20 s. ## Summary The short opens with Kent Hovind: "what's called macro evolution. That's where an animal changes to a different kind of animal. Do you know nobody has ever seen a dog produce a non dog? Never." The question: "How can small changes within a kind end up becoming a new species? It's a reasonable question. He's right, a dog will never give birth to a non dog." "Evolution says the same thing": a poodle is a dog, a dog is a canine, a canine is a mammal, and every descendant of a poodle "will still be a canine and will still be a mammal." Microevolution is change within a species over generations (size, shape, color, hair); macroevolution is "a change big enough that one species gives rise to a new species." Many say there's a wall small changes can't get over, "but small changes happen in every generation and over a very, very, very, very long time, they add up." A skull quiz: a collie and a pug are the same species, a lion and a tiger are not. "So looks don't make a species. What makes them the same species is that their genes can still mix." A Chihuahua and a Great Dane can't really mate on their own but are joined by all the middle-sized dogs; take those away "and those two would probably never mate on their own. That's how a new species starts." People bred the dogs, but in the wild it happens naturally, and occasionally we see it start. The Grants have studied finches on the Galápagos since 1973. In 1981 a newcomer reached Daphne Major; DNA later showed it was a large cactus finch from an island more than 100 km away. He sang an unusual song but mated with a medium ground finch, a different species. Young finches learn their parents' songs and pick mates that sing and look like family, so from the second generation his descendants mated only with each other. "Within three generations, this family was breeding apart from all the other finches on the island. Scientists call it a new species in the making." Others have been caught partway: apple maggot flies, a ring of little birds around Tibet, salamanders around California's Central Valley. Now let that run 100, 1,000 or 100,000 generations. Darwin's finches have had hundreds of thousands of generations, and one ancestral species became more than a dozen. Lions and tigers came from one ancestral species; every living cat from one population "something like 10 to 15 million years ago"; cats, dogs, walruses and falanoucs from one species "something like 50 to 65 million years ago." "A group stops mixing, they start to change, and it splits again. Macroevolution is just microevolution. It's just added up over time. If you think there's a wall, tell me which of the small steps it applies to." ## Outline ### 0:00 "Nobody has ever seen a dog produce a non-dog" - [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=0s) (clip) "what's called macro evolution. That's where an animal changes to a different kind of animal. Do you know nobody has ever seen a dog produce a non dog? Never." - [0:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=10s) "How can small changes within a kind end up becoming a new species? It's a reasonable question. He's right, a dog will never give birth to a non dog." - [0:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=18s) "Evolution says the same thing, a poodle is a dog, a dog is a canine, a canine is a mammal." ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0003.webp]] ### 0:28 Micro and macro - [0:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=28s) "Microevolution is a change in species over generations. Size, shape, color, hair, whatever." - [0:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=34s) "Macroevolution is a change big enough that one species gives rise to a new species." - [0:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=39s) "Many say that that never happens, that there's a wall that small changes can't get over." - [0:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=43s) "But small changes happen in every generation and over a very, very, very, very long time, they add up." ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0023.webp]] ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0043.webp]] ### 0:50 What makes a species - [0:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=50s) "One of these pairs is the same species. Which one?" - [0:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=53s) "These two are the same species, a collie and a pug. These two are different species, a lion and a tiger." - [1:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=62s) "What makes them the same species is that their genes can still mix." - [1:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=65s) "Even a Chihuahua and a Great Dane, which can't really mate on their own, are joined by all the middle sized dogs in between." - [1:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=72s) "If you take away all the middle sized dogs, those two would probably never mate on their own. That's how a new species starts." ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0063.webp]] ### 1:18 A new finch line on Daphne Major - [1:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=78s) "People bred all of these dogs, but in the wild, that happens naturally. And occasionally, we can see it start." - [1:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=84s) "I did a video on the Grants, two biologists who studied finches on the Galapagos Islands starting in 1973." - [1:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=90s) "In 1981, they spotted a newcomer to Daphne Major. And DNA later showed that it was a large cactus finch from an island more than 100 km away." - [1:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=99s) "He sang an unusual song, but he mated with a medium ground finch, which is a different species." - [1:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=104s) "In these finches, the young learn the songs of their parents. And later, they pick mates that sing and look like their family." - [1:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=115s) "Within three generations, this family was breeding apart from all the other finches on the island. Scientists call it a new species in the making." ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0083.webp]] ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0103.webp]] ### 2:02 Others caught partway - [2:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=122s) "other groups have been caught partway, too. Apple maggot flies, a ring of little birds around Tibet, salamanders across California's Central Valley." ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0123.webp]] ### 2:10 Let it run - [2:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=130s) "These finches took three generations to start. So, now let that run 100 generations or 1,000 generations or 100,000 generations." - [2:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=137s) "Darwin's finches have had hundreds of thousands of generations, and in that time one ancestral species became more than a dozen." - [2:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=144s) "Lions and tigers came from one ancestral species." - [2:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=146s) "Every living cat from a house cat to a lion to a tiger came from one ancestral population something like 10 to 15 million years ago." - [2:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=153s) "And cats, dogs, walruses, and fallonux [falanoucs] all share one ancestral species something like 50 to 65 million years ago." ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0143.webp]] ### 2:40 Where's the wall? - [2:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=160s) "Every example is the same thing. A group stops mixing, they start to change, and it splits again." - [2:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=166s) "Macroevolution is just microevolution. It's just added up over time." - [2:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKHJUuK2j9A&t=171s) "If you think there's a wall, tell me which of the small steps it applies to." ![[images/Microevolution-Is-Macroevolution-Is-Evolution-True-Part-7-t0163.webp]] ## Anti-evolution argument *Stated fairly, from Kent Hovind and Answers in Genesis.* - **Variation is not evolution:** in his "The Age of the Earth" seminar (the clip used, from about 20:52) Kent Hovind defines macroevolution as "where an animal changes to a different kind of animal" and says "nobody has ever seen a dog produce a non dog" [R1]. On this view, breeds, beak sizes and colors are variation within a created "kind," not evidence that kinds change. - **No link between micro and macro:** David Menton of Answers in Genesis (first published 1994, republished 2017) argues that Darwin "extrapolated the observable but limited variation that occurs among the individuals of a species, into the unobservable evolution of fundamentally new animals," that "any breeder could have told him otherwise," and that "there is, in fact, no known relationship between so-called microevolution and macroevolution" [R2]. He says the peppered moth may show natural selection but not "a fundamentally new kind of animal, or even a new species of moth" [R2]. - **The wall:** the implied claim, which the video names, is that there is a limit that small changes cannot cross. ## Answer *Point by point. Numbers refer to the References table.* ### 1. "A dog never produces a non-dog" - Agreed by evolution: descendants stay within their ancestors' group (a nested hierarchy); a new species is still a dog, a canine, a mammal. The claim is not what evolution predicts against. ### 2. Looks versus gene flow - Lion and tiger skulls are told apart by specific features despite being similar overall [R3, R4]; collies and pugs look very different yet are one species. The Conversation piece the description cites makes the Chihuahua–Great Dane point: breeds are "simply too young" to be species and are kept apart by people [R5]. - Nuance: genes can mix a little even between lion and tiger lineages; big-cat genomes show "complex patterns of historical interspecific hybridization" [R18]. "Genes can still mix" is a sliding scale, which fits the video's point that species form gradually. ### 3. Small changes every generation - Each human child carries new mutations; Kong et al. 2012 measured the rate and its rise with the father's age [R6]. ### 4. The Daphne Major finches - Lamichhaney et al. 2018: an immigrant *G. conirostris* male from Española, ">100 kilometers" away, bred with a resident *G. fortis*; "from the second generation onward, the lineage bred endogamously," and reproductive isolation "can be established in only three" generations [R7]. Accurate. (The paper calls it homoploid hybrid speciation; "a new species in the making" is a fair paraphrase.) - The Grants' 2002 Science abstract dates the Daphne Major data from 1972 [R8]; the video says 1973. A one-year difference, not resolved further. ### 5. Others caught partway - Apple maggot fly host races on hawthorn and apple [R11] (metadata only). - Greenish warblers around Tibet: nearly complete reproductive isolation where the ring's ends meet in Siberia, but the genome study found breaks in gene flow at more than one place and casts "doubt on the hypothesis that the greenish warbler should be viewed as a rare example of speciation by distance," while showing "a continuum from slightly divergent neighbouring populations to almost fully reproductively isolated species" [R12]. Fair as "caught partway," less so as a clean ring. - Ensatina around the Central Valley: reproductive isolation "only at the terminus of the ring," with "a continuum between populations, ecological races, and species" [R13]. Accurate. ### 6. Deep time - Darwin's finches: genome sequencing of all species shows one radiation with extensive gene flow [R10]; the description cites Grant & Grant (American Scientist 2002) for age and species count [R9]. "Hundreds of thousands of generations" is a derived estimate (age divided by generation length [R8]); not checked number by number. - Lions and tigers: one recent Pliocene radiation of *Panthera*, with speciation events "within less than 1 million years" [R14]. - All living cats: Johnson et al. 2006 put modern felids at "<11 million years ago" [R15]. The video's "10 to 15 million" (the description says 11 to 16) runs older than that paper; Nyakatura & Bininda-Emonds 2012 is also cited [R16]. Roughly right, upper bound generous. - Cats, dogs, walruses, falanoucs: Eizirik et al. 2010 built a molecular timescale for all carnivoran families [R17]; the 50–65 million year figure isn't in the abstract and wasn't checked. ### 7. Micro and macro - Menton's "no known relationship" [R2] is answered by the cases above: the same process (populations stop mixing, then diverge) is seen at every stage, from finch lineages to ring species to cat families. ## Key takeaways - "A dog never gives birth to a non-dog" is true and is what evolution predicts. - A species is defined by whether genes still mix, not by looks. - A hybrid finch lineage on Daphne Major became reproductively isolated in three generations. - Ring species and host races show splits at intermediate stages, though the warbler ring is messier than the textbook version. - Deep-time splits (cats ~11 Ma, carnivorans earlier) are the same process run longer. ## Things mentioned ### Things and methods - Microevolution and macroevolution; the biological species concept; gene flow; ring species; host races; hybrid speciation; song learning and mate choice; genome sequencing; molecular dating ### Places - Daphne Major and Española, Galápagos; the Tibetan plateau (greenish warblers); California's Central Valley (Ensatina) ### Animals - Poodle, collie, pug, Chihuahua, Great Dane; lion, tiger; large cactus finch (*Geospiza conirostris*), medium ground finch (*G. fortis*); apple maggot fly; greenish warbler; Ensatina salamander; walrus; falanouc ### Ideas - Created "kinds" (creationist); "the wall" ### Works (from the description) - Pocock 1939; Formanová & Kubátová 2025; Hailer 2016; Kong et al. 2012; Lamichhaney et al. 2018, 2015; Grant & Grant 2002 (Science; American Scientist); Feder, Chilcote & Bush 1988; Alcaide et al. 2014; Pereira & Wake 2009; Davis, Li & Murphy 2010; Johnson et al. 2006; Nyakatura & Bininda-Emonds 2012; Eizirik et al. 2010; Figueiró et al. 2017; Kent Hovind, "The Age of the Earth" seminar ### Links from the description - Papers: https://doi.org/10.1111/zsc.12716 · https://doi.org/10.1038/nature11396 · https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aao4593 · https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1070315 · https://doi.org/10.1511/2002.2.130 · https://doi.org/10.1038/nature14181 · https://doi.org/10.1038/336061a0 · https://doi.org/10.1038/nature13285 · https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2009.00722.x · https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev.2010.01.036 · https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1122277 · https://doi.org/10.1186/1741-7007-10-12 · https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev.2010.01.033 · https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.1700299 - Other: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.207334 · https://theconversation.com/why-dog-breeds-arent-considered-separate-species-56113 · https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaHcHwPj4sw&t=1252 - https://joeliscurious.com · https://www.instagram.com/joeliscurious/ · https://www.tiktok.com/@joeliscurious · https://x.com/JoelisCurious · https://www.youtube.com/@joeliscurious ## Claims check | Claim in the video | Verdict | Source or note | |---|---|---| | Hovind: "nobody has ever seen a dog produce a non dog" | **Quoted accurately; in context** | Clip of [R1], linked at 20:52 in the description; wording from the clip | | A collie and a pug are one species; a lion and a tiger are two | **Accurate** | [R5]; lion/tiger skull features [R3, R4] | | Chihuahuas and Great Danes are linked through middle-sized dogs | **Accurate** | [R5] | | Small changes happen every generation | **Accurate** | [R6] | | The Grants' study began in 1973 | **Minor discrepancy** | The 2002 Science abstract covers 1972–2001 [R8]; not resolved further | | A large cactus finch from >100 km away reached Daphne Major in 1981 and bred with a medium ground finch | **Accurate** | [R7] (Española, >100 km; the 1981 year isn't in the abstract) | | Within three generations the family bred apart | **Accurate** | [R7] | | Apple maggot flies, warblers around Tibet, Ensatina are splits caught partway | **Accurate, with nuance for the warblers** | [R11, R12, R13] | | Darwin's finches: one ancestor, more than a dozen species, hundreds of thousands of generations | **Broadly accurate; generation count not checked** | [R9, R10, R8] | | Lions and tigers share one ancestral species | **Accurate** | [R14, R18] | | All living cats share an ancestor ~10–15 million years ago | **Roughly; on the high side** | [R15]: <11 Ma; description says 11–16 | | Cats, dogs, walruses and falanoucs share an ancestor ~50–65 million years ago | **Plausible; not checked** | [R17] abstract has no figure | ## References | # | Source | Exists? | Use in the video / role | Link | |---|---|---|---|---| | R1 | Kent Hovind, "The Age of the Earth" seminar (re-upload on YouTube) | **Exists** (video title read) | Description source: the opening clip; the 20:52 timestamp not watched | [youtube.com](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaHcHwPj4sw&t=1252) | | R2 | David Menton, "Natural Selection and Macroevolution," Answers in Genesis, 2017-08-05 (first published 1994) | **Exists** (read) | Added: the creationist case; quotes accurate | [answersingenesis.org](https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/natural-selection-and-macroevolution/) | | R3 | R. I. Pocock, *The Fauna of British India: Mammalia*, vol. 1 (1939), p. 212 | **Exists** (archive.org record read) | Description source: lion and tiger skulls; p. 212 not checked | [archive.org](https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.207334) | | R4 | Formanová & Kubátová, "Identification of tiger and lion skulls: An illustrated guide for science and practice," *Zool Scr* 54:291–304 (2025) | **Exists** (metadata read) | Description source: the skull quiz | [doi:10.1111/zsc.12716](https://doi.org/10.1111/zsc.12716) | | R5 | Frank Hailer, "Why dog breeds aren't considered separate species," *The Conversation* (2016) | **Exists** (read) | Description source: Chihuahuas and Great Danes | [theconversation.com](https://theconversation.com/why-dog-breeds-arent-considered-separate-species-56113) | | R6 | Kong et al., "Rate of de novo mutations and the importance of father's age to disease risk," *Nature* 488:471–475 (2012) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: small changes every generation | [doi:10.1038/nature11396](https://doi.org/10.1038/nature11396) | | R7 | Lamichhaney et al., "Rapid hybrid speciation in Darwin's finches," *Science* 359:224–228 (2018) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: the new finch line; quoted accurately | [doi:10.1126/science.aao4593](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aao4593) | | R8 | Grant & Grant, "Unpredictable Evolution in a 30-Year Study of Darwin's Finches," *Science* 296:707–711 (2002) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: finch generation length | [doi:10.1126/science.1070315](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1070315) | | R9 | Grant & Grant, "Adaptive Radiation of Darwin's Finches," *American Scientist* 90:130 (2002) | **Exists** (metadata read) | Description source: age and species count | [doi:10.1511/2002.2.130](https://doi.org/10.1511/2002.2.130) | | R10 | Lamichhaney et al., "Evolution of Darwin's finches and their beaks revealed by genome sequencing," *Nature* 518:371–375 (2015) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: one radiation | [doi:10.1038/nature14181](https://doi.org/10.1038/nature14181) | | R11 | Feder, Chilcote & Bush, "Genetic differentiation between sympatric host races of the apple maggot fly *Rhagoletis pomonella*," *Nature* 336:61–64 (1988) | **Exists** (metadata read) | Description source: apple maggot flies | [doi:10.1038/336061a0](https://doi.org/10.1038/336061a0) | | R12 | Alcaide et al., "Genomic divergence in a ring species complex," *Nature* 511:83–85 (2014) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: greenish warblers; abstract adds nuance | [doi:10.1038/nature13285](https://doi.org/10.1038/nature13285) | | R13 | Pereira & Wake, "Genetic leakage after adaptive and nonadaptive divergence in the *Ensatina eschscholtzii* ring species," *Evolution* 63:2288–2301 (2009) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: Ensatina | [doi:10.1111/j.1558-5646.2009.00722.x](https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1558-5646.2009.00722.x) | | R14 | Davis, Li & Murphy, "Supermatrix and species tree methods resolve phylogenetic relationships within the big cats, *Panthera*," *Mol Phylogenet Evol* 56:64–76 (2010) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: lions and tigers, a few million years | [doi:10.1016/j.ympev.2010.01.036](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev.2010.01.036) | | R15 | Johnson et al., "The Late Miocene Radiation of Modern Felidae: A Genetic Assessment," *Science* 311:73–77 (2006) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: all living cats; <11 Ma | [doi:10.1126/science.1122277](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1122277) | | R16 | Nyakatura & Bininda-Emonds, "Updating the evolutionary history of Carnivora (Mammalia): a new species-level supertree complete with divergence time estimates," *BMC Biol* 10:12 (2012) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: cat and carnivoran dates; figures not checked | [doi:10.1186/1741-7007-10-12](https://doi.org/10.1186/1741-7007-10-12) | | R17 | Eizirik et al., "Pattern and timing of diversification of the mammalian order Carnivora inferred from multiple nuclear gene sequences," *Mol Phylogenet Evol* 56:49–63 (2010) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: cats, dogs, walruses, falanoucs; 50–65 Ma not in abstract | [doi:10.1016/j.ympev.2010.01.033](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ympev.2010.01.033) | | R18 | Figueiró et al., "Genome-wide signatures of complex introgression and adaptive evolution in the big cats," *Sci Adv* 3:e1700299 (2017) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: big-cat genomes and old mixing | [doi:10.1126/sciadv.1700299](https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.1700299) | ### Not found or not checked - The Hovind seminar wasn't watched at 20:52; the quote is taken from the clip in the short. - The 1981 arrival year and the Grants' 1973 start were not checked in full text (the 2002 Science abstract gives 1972–2001). - The 50–65 million year carnivoran figure and the Nyakatura dates weren't checked (abstracts only). - Pocock p. 212 wasn't opened. ## Added context - **Series:** Part 7 of "Is evolution true?" Earlier parts: [[How could an eye have evolved (Is evolution true Part 1)]], [[Why are there still monkeys (Is evolution true Part 2)]], [[Where's the missing link Her name is Lucy. (Is evolution true Part 3)]], [[Just a theory (Is evolution true Part 4)]], [[Is evolution still happening (Is evolution true Part 5)]], [[Not a single piece of evidence for evolution (Is evolution true Part 6)]]. Previous upload: [[Does soft tissue prove dinosaurs are young]]. - **Related:** [[One drought. Bigger beaks. (How evolution works, Part 1)]] is the Grants video he refers to; [[How do we know without DNA]] on family trees. ## Biographies ### Joel is Curious (the creator) YouTube channel **Joel is Curious**, all Shorts, from 2026-10-04. In his own words (video description): "I'm Joel, a software developer and former tech executive who likes to learn stuff. Science, history, Buddhism, Stoicism, and the thinkers behind them." He lists his sources in each description. (Sources: the video and its description.) ### Kent Hovind (added context) Young-earth creationist speaker whose seminar series includes "The Age of the Earth" [R1]. ### Peter and Rosemary Grant (added context) Evolutionary biologists who have studied Darwin's finches on Daphne Major since the 1970s [R8, R7]. ### David Menton (added context) Former anatomy professor and Answers in Genesis speaker; author of R2.