# How do we know without DNA? ![[images/How-Do-We-Know-Without-DNA.webp]] **Creator:** Joel is Curious · **Published:** 2026-10-13 · **Length:** 1:47 (YouTube Short) · [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg) > Caption source: **YouTube auto-generated English captions (en-orig)**, fetched with yt-dlp (android_vr client) on the first try. No TubeAlfred credits were used. Timestamps are from the captions. The short is a vertical talking-head take outdoors (a beanie and a tan jacket, trees behind) with burned-in captions. It opens on the viewer's comment shown on screen ("There is zero dna evidence... Archaeopteryx is simply a distinct, unique species of animal... much like a platypus today has a duck's bill and a beaver's tail but is neither a duck nor a beaver..."). Overlay cards list "like dinosaurs: teeth, clawed fingers / like birds: feathered wings / the wishbone: both." Screenshots are one about every 20 s. ## Summary A commenter on the creator's Archaeopteryx video ([[Birds from dinosaurs (Response to Christian Destroys Evolutionist Teacher, Part 1)]]) wrote that there is zero DNA evidence that Archaeopteryx was transitional, that it was "simply a distinct, unique species of animal," and that it is like the platypus, which has a duck's bill and a beaver's tail but is neither. "It's a reasonable question," the creator says. You can look at the bones, at the rock they're found in, and at DNA from other animals. He agrees with two points. No DNA has been found in Archaeopteryx; "so far, we haven't found DNA in anything older than 2 million years." And it was its own species: most scientists don't think it was necessarily a direct ancestor of birds, "just a close uncle or aunt." "Transitional doesn't mean grandpa in this case." It means it had some features of dinosaurs and some of birds. "And I didn't say that it proved anything. I said it was evidence." DNA is still useful evidence: "All living birds have the DNA to make teeth, and they don't make teeth. So, that's evidence that their ancestors had teeth." (The description puts it more precisely: they carry the same broken genes for enamel and dentin.) The body says the same. Modern birds have wishbones; so did Archaeopteryx and dinosaurs in the Velociraptor family. Archaeopteryx had teeth and clawed fingers like a dinosaur and wings like a bird. "The platypus is a fair comparison, just not of a duck and a beaver." Its bill is a mammal snout and jaw covered in soft skin, while a duck's bill is a beak: "They look similar, but they're not the same part. Underneath, it's a mammal. Hair, milk, three tiny bones in the middle ear." When scientists read its DNA, it had milk genes like other mammals, and other mammal-matching genes. "The DNA agreed with the bones." Egg-laying is thought to be carried over from early mammals. Finally, dinosaurs with long feathers show up before Archaeopteryx, 160 million years ago or more, and some of the earliest birds like today's are only about 67 million years old. There's a big difference between Archaeopteryx and today's birds, "but there are enough similarities that it ties them to dinosaurs." ## Outline ### 0:00 The comment - [0:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=0s) "If there's no DNA found in Archaeopteryx, then how do we know that it's a transitional animal? It's a reasonable question." - [0:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=5s) "You can look at the bones, you can look at the rock that they're found in, and you can look at other DNA from other animals." ![[images/How-Do-We-Know-Without-DNA-t0003.webp]] ### 0:09 Where the commenter is right - [0:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=9s) "There is no DNA found in Archaeopteryx. So far, we haven't found DNA in anything older than 2 million years." - [0:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=17s) "Most scientists don't think it was necessarily a direct ancestor of birds, that it was just a close uncle or aunt. So, transitional doesn't mean grandpa in this case." ![[images/How-Do-We-Know-Without-DNA-t0023.webp]] ### 0:31 Evidence, not proof; tooth genes - [0:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=31s) "I didn't say that it proved anything. I said it was evidence." - [0:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=36s) "All living birds have the DNA to make teeth, and they don't make teeth. So, that's evidence that their ancestors had teeth." ![[images/How-Do-We-Know-Without-DNA-t0043.webp]] ### 0:42 The wishbone, teeth and claws - [0:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=42s) "Modern birds have wishbones. Archaeopteryx did. So did dinosaurs in the Velociraptor family." - [0:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=50s) "It had teeth, it had clawed fingers like dinosaurs, and it had wings like a bird." ![[images/How-Do-We-Know-Without-DNA-t0063.webp]] ### 0:55 The platypus - [0:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=55s) "The platypus is a fair comparison, just not of a duck and a beaver. Its duck bill is just a mammal snout and jaw covered in soft skin. A duck's bill is literally a beak." - [1:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=68s) "Underneath, it's a mammal. Hair, milk, three tiny bones in the middle ear. When scientists read the DNA, it had milk genes just like the other mammals." - [1:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=79s) "The DNA agreed with the bones. It does lay eggs, but scientists think that's just something that carried over from early mammals." ![[images/How-Do-We-Know-Without-DNA-t0083.webp]] ### 1:24 Feathers before Archaeopteryx; modern birds later - [1:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=84s) "Dinosaurs with long feathers show up before Archaeopteryx in the fossil record, 160 million years or more. Some of the earliest fossils of birds like today are only 67 million years old." - [1:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25v0KovJMsg&t=97s) "There's a big difference between the Archaeopteryx and birds of today, but there are enough similarities that it ties them to dinosaurs. Thanks for engaging the comments. Let's keep talking." ![[images/How-Do-We-Know-Without-DNA-t0103.webp]] ## Anti-evolution argument *Stated fairly, from the comment shown in the video and creationist sources.* - **No DNA, no proof:** the commenter's point is that "there is zero dna evidence" linking Archaeopteryx to dinosaurs or birds, so calling it transitional goes beyond the evidence. Bones alone, on this view, show what an animal looked like, not who its relatives were. - **A unique kind, not a link:** Archaeopteryx "is simply a distinct, unique species of animal." Mixed features don't make an animal an intermediate: the platypus "has a duck's bill and a beaver's tail but is neither a duck nor a beaver," and no one claims it is a duck-beaver transition. - **It's just a bird:** creationist organizations generally treat Archaeopteryx as a true bird created as such. Creation Ministries International lists "Archaeopteryx is a fraud" among arguments creationists should not use, and calls it "a true bird, not a 'missing link'" [R7]. The skit the creator's response series answers makes the related claim that Archaeopteryx is "just a bird" [R8]. ## Answer *Point by point. Numbers refer to the References table.* ### 1. The concessions are accurate - The oldest DNA recovered so far is environmental DNA from the Kap København Formation in North Greenland, "dated to around two million years ago" [R2]. Archaeopteryx is about 150 million years old, so the commenter is right that no DNA will settle this case directly. - "Transitional doesn't mean grandpa" is the standard view: a transitional fossil shows a mix of ancestral and derived features, whether or not that particular species is a direct ancestor. The creator's claim is about evidence, not proof, and he says so. ### 2. DNA from living birds still testifies about the past - Meredith et al. compared genomes from "lineages of nearly all extant bird orders" and "recovered shared, inactivating mutations within genes expressed in both the enamel and dentin of teeth of other vertebrate species, indicating that the common ancestor of modern birds lacked mineralized teeth," with tooth loss about 116 million years ago [R1]. - The video's "All living birds have the DNA to make teeth" is a simplification: the genes are present but broken, so birds could not simply make teeth again. The description states it correctly ("broken genes for tooth enamel and dentin"). The point stands: broken tooth genes shared across birds are what you'd expect if their common ancestor once had teeth. ### 3. The wishbone - Velociraptor did have a wishbone: Norell, Makovicky & Clark described one in *Nature* in 1997 ("A Velociraptor wishbone") [R6]. The description gives no source for this claim; R6 was found separately and only its title and metadata were read. ### 4. The platypus comparison cuts the other way - The platypus genome paper describes "a fascinating combination of reptilian and mammalian characters": fur, females that "lactate, yet lay eggs," and males with venom similar to reptiles'. It found that "milk protein genes are conserved despite platypuses laying eggs" [R3]. That matches the creator's "milk genes just like the other mammals." - So the platypus is a good example of the creator's method: an animal with odd mixed features whose DNA, read later, agreed with what the bones said (a mammal). The analogy works against the commenter only if the bones are read as "duck parts"; the creator's point is that the platypus bill is not a duck's beak (a standard anatomical point, not sourced in the description). - "Egg-laying carried over from early mammals" is the mainstream interpretation, consistent with R3's description of the genome as a mix of reptilian and mammalian signatures. ### 5. The fossil order - Hu et al. described "a pre-Archaeopteryx troodontid theropod from China with long feathers on the metatarsus" (*Anchiornis*) [R4]: long-feathered dinosaurs before Archaeopteryx, as the creator says. - Field et al. described *Asteriornis*, a "Late Cretaceous neornithine from Europe" that "illuminates the origins of crown birds" [R5], about 66.7 million years old: "some of the earliest fossils of birds like today are only 67 million years old" is accurate. ### 6. Answering "just a bird" - Even the creationist side doesn't argue Archaeopteryx is fake [R7]; the disagreement is about how to read its features. No living bird has teeth, and the broken tooth genes [R1] show modern birds came from toothed ancestors. A "true bird" with teeth is itself the kind of mix the creator means by "transitional." ## Key takeaways - No DNA survives from Archaeopteryx (the oldest DNA found is about 2 million years old), and the creator says so. - "Transitional" means a mix of features, not a proven direct ancestor. - Living birds share broken enamel and dentin genes, evidence that their ancestors had teeth. - The platypus genome agreed with its anatomy: a mammal, with milk genes conserved despite egg-laying. - Long-feathered dinosaurs predate Archaeopteryx; modern-type birds appear about 67 million years ago. ## Things mentioned ### Things and methods - Archaeopteryx; ancient DNA; tooth enamel and dentin genes; the wishbone (furcula); Velociraptor (dromaeosaurs); platypus bill, hair, milk and middle-ear bones; egg-laying ### Places - Kap København Formation, North Greenland (from R2); China (*Anchiornis*); Europe (*Asteriornis*) ### Ideas - Transitional fossils as mixes of features; evidence versus proof; DNA and anatomy as independent checks ### Works (from the description) - Meredith et al. 2014; Kjær et al. 2022; Warren et al. 2008; Hu et al. 2009; Field et al. 2020 ### Links from the description - https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1254390 · https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9729109/ · https://doi.org/10.1038/nature06936 · https://doi.org/10.1038/nature08322 · https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2096-0 · https://joeliscurious.com · https://www.instagram.com/joeliscurious/ · https://www.tiktok.com/@joeliscurious · https://x.com/JoelisCurious · https://www.youtube.com/@joeliscurious ## Claims check | Claim in the video | Verdict | Source or note | |---|---|---| | No DNA has been found in Archaeopteryx; none older than about 2 million years | **Accurate** | [R2] | | Most scientists don't see Archaeopteryx as necessarily a direct ancestor | **Fair** | Standard usage of "transitional"; no source in the description | | All living birds have the DNA to make teeth | **Simplified** | They share broken (inactivated) enamel and dentin genes [R1]; the description says so | | Archaeopteryx and Velociraptor-family dinosaurs had wishbones | **Accurate** | [R6]; not sourced in the description | | The platypus bill is a mammal snout covered in skin, not a beak | **Accurate in substance** | Standard anatomy; not sourced in the description | | Platypus DNA has milk genes like other mammals | **Accurate** | "milk protein genes are conserved despite platypuses laying eggs" [R3] | | Long-feathered dinosaurs predate Archaeopteryx, about 160 million years or more | **Accurate** | [R4] | | Some of the earliest modern-type birds are about 67 million years old | **Accurate** | *Asteriornis*, about 66.7 million years [R5] | ## References | # | Source | Exists? | Use in the video / role | Link | |---|---|---|---|---| | R1 | Meredith, Zhang, Gilbert, Jarvis & Springer, "Evidence for a single loss of mineralized teeth in the common avian ancestor," *Science* 346:1254390 (2014) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: broken tooth genes; quoted accurately in the description | [doi:10.1126/science.1254390](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1254390) | | R2 | Kjær et al., "A 2-million-year-old ecosystem in Greenland uncovered by environmental DNA," *Nature* 612:283–291 (2022) | **Exists** (read on PMC) | Description source: oldest DNA, about 2 million years | [PMC9729109](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9729109/) | | R3 | Warren et al., "Genome analysis of the platypus reveals unique signatures of evolution," *Nature* 453:175–183 (2008) | **Exists** (abstract read) | Description source: milk genes, mixed features | [doi:10.1038/nature06936](https://doi.org/10.1038/nature06936) | | R4 | Hu, Hou, Zhang & Xu, "A pre-Archaeopteryx troodontid theropod from China with long feathers on the metatarsus," *Nature* 461:640–643 (2009) | **Exists** (metadata read) | Description source: feathered dinosaurs before Archaeopteryx | [doi:10.1038/nature08322](https://doi.org/10.1038/nature08322) | | R5 | Field, Benito, Chen, Jagt & Ksepka, "Late Cretaceous neornithine from Europe illuminates the origins of crown birds," *Nature* 579:397–401 (2020) | **Exists** (metadata read) | Description source: an early modern bird about 67 million years ago | [doi:10.1038/s41586-020-2096-0](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-020-2096-0) | | R6 | Norell, Makovicky & Clark, "A Velociraptor wishbone," *Nature* 389:447 (1997) | **Exists** (metadata only) | Added: source for the wishbone claim, which the description doesn't cite | [doi:10.1038/38918](https://doi.org/10.1038/38918) | | R7 | Sarfati, "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use," Creation Ministries International, 2006-02-07 (updated since) | **Exists** (read) | Added: the creationist view of Archaeopteryx as "a true bird" | [creation.com](https://creation.com/arguments-we-think-creationists-should-not-use) | | R8 | Genesis Apologetics, "Christian Destroys Evolutionist Teacher" skit (YouTube) | **Exists** (checked in earlier notes) | Added: the skit this response series answers | [youtube.com](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h39R3rBNjZ0) | ### Not found or not checked - The commenter's identity isn't shown in a way that could be checked; the comment text is from the on-screen card. - R6 was checked by title and metadata only; its text wasn't read. - The platypus bill anatomy and "three middle-ear bones" weren't traced to a specific source; they're standard anatomy. ## Added context - **Series:** A reply to a comment on [[Birds from dinosaurs (Response to Christian Destroys Evolutionist Teacher, Part 1)]]. Related: [[Are birds reptiles Why the answer is confusing]] and [[The halfway animal (Response to Christian Destroys Evolutionist Teacher, Part 3)]]. Previous upload: [[Stripes on the sea floor (The Age of the Earth, Part 3)]]. ## Biographies ### Joel is Curious (the creator) YouTube channel **Joel is Curious**, 21 uploads (all Shorts) from 2026-10-04. In his own words (video description): "I'm Joel, a software developer and former tech executive who likes to learn stuff. Science, history, Buddhism, Stoicism, and the thinkers behind them." He lists his sources in each description. (Sources: the video and its description.) ### Jonathan Sarfati (added context) Author of the Creation Ministries International article "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use" [R7], which advises creationists against calling Archaeopteryx a fraud.