# 024 Self-Trust Is a Career Skill ![[images/024-Whitney-Schreck-episode-art.jpg]] Part of [[Pixels & Priorities]] (listed in [[Pixels & Priorities - Audio Episodes 015-031]]). Previous: [[023 Product Strategy - Are You Allowed to Ask Why]]. Next: [[025 When Work Never Feels Finished]]. - Show: Pixels & Priorities, hosted by Metsy Rose and J Schuh (RSS author field) - Episode: 024, published 2026-09-08 (RSS pubDate Tue 05:00 -0500); guest Whitney Schreck, part 1 of 2 (the mp3 file is named `Ep_024_Whitney_Part_1`) - Audio: https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/abasqnvcv5su6t7a/Ep_024_Whitney_Part_1_7zedt.mp3 - Podbean page: https://pixelsandpriorities.podbean.com/e/024-self-trust-is-a-career-skill/ - Length: 41:04 (2,464.8 s measured from the mp3; matches the RSS `itunes:duration` of 2464 s). - RSS description: "Leadership coach Whitney Schreck joins Metsy and J to explore self-trust as an important career skill. Metsy and J share the rocky start to their own working relationship and how choosing compassionate curiosity over assumption helped them build trust. The conversation also touches on how assessments like DISC and TriMetrix can become useful career tools instead of one-time team exercises." - Artwork: the feed's episode image (guest card, "Whitney Schreck, Executive Coach, whitisms.com"), saved as `images/024-Whitney-Schreck-episode-art.jpg`. - Transcript: faster-whisper (medium, int8, CPU) on the mp3 with VAD on, beam size 5 (about 7.1 minutes of transcription, 6,861 words). That pass garbled or dropped several stretches (the show open about 0:00-0:36, 5:06-5:18, 13:46-14:22, 24:57-25:33, 27:23-27:59 and 28:20-28:28, plus a collapsed line around 36:39-36:53) and inserted stray characters; those were re-transcribed in 31 short overlapping chunks with VAD off (about 1.4 minutes). A few words around 0:21-0:28 stayed thin. The publisher transcript (Podbean VTT, `Ep_024_Whitney_Part_1_7v0vp.vtt`, about 7,400 words) was used for the outline timestamps and to check names and wording. All quotes come from the Whisper transcript (case, punctuation, doubled-word and stray-character fixes only). Speakers are not diarized; attribution follows content and the hosts addressing each other by name (Metsy: show open and the opening question, the "Metsy wall" story, self-trust and assessments, the close; J: the personality-bias question, his first months, the fart line, being a facilitator, win-win and the emotional piggy bank, the setup for part 2; Whitney: everything else, including walls versus standards). Where a line is uncertain it says "likely." Correct spellings are **Metsy Rose**, **J Schuh** and **Whitney Schreck** (Whisper heard "Metzi," "Betsy," "Menci," "Jay" and "Shrek"), **TriMetrix** (heard "tri-metrics," "triometrics"), **DISC** (heard "desk") and **Jane Vella** (heard "Jane Vela"). ## Hosts - **Metsy Rose** - co-host; product manager and strategist (show open). Says she met J at an organization while under "a super stressful situation" that had her walls up, though her usual way is "open arms." Says she has known Whitney "for quite a while," uses assessments "in every situation," and has used them to inform UX personas for her user groups. - **J Schuh** - co-host; design strategist, educator, and creative mind (show open). Says he was hired as a facilitator at the organization where he met Metsy, that no one else on that team had as much experience and training, and that his predecessor had a similar personality and had been let go (he learned this months later). Whitney says she had begun reviewing a TriMetrix with him. ## Guest - **Whitney Schreck** - leadership and executive coach; founder of Whitney S. Consulting (show intro and episode art, "Executive Coach, whitisms.com"). Metsy introduces the company as providing "leadership and executive coaching services as well as HR consultations to help companies and individuals define, develop, and deliver better work environments." In the episode Whitney says she uses the TriMetrix in hiring, onboarding and team development, usually assesses the manager as well as the candidate, comes "from the background of Jane Vella," calls herself "the analogy queen," and works from home as an entrepreneur. - Web sources: the show's guest page (https://pixelsandpriorities.ghost.io/whitney-schreck/) says she is an Arkansas native with 15 years working with leaders around the world, holds a master's degree in Global Leadership from Fuller ("Fuller University" on that page), is a published author, and holds certifications in behavioral, motivational and acumen sciences through TTI Success Insights. Her company site (https://whitisms.com/about/) repeats this ("Masters of Global Leadership from Fuller University in Pasadena Ca.") and says she won Best of Jonesboro Human Resource Consulting for 2019 and 2022; it lists DISC, Driving Forces, Skills Inventory/Acumen and TriMetrix assessments, and leadership, team development and transitional strategy coaching. Her public LinkedIn profile (https://linkedin.com/in/whitney-schreck-92373a45) lists Founder, Whitney S. Consulting since January 2013 (Jonesboro, Arkansas), TTI Success Insights CPBA, CPMA and CPHDA credentials since 2012, and a Master of Global Leadership at Fuller Theological Seminary (2017-2020). ## Outline (timestamps are mm:ss) - **0:00 Show open.** Metsy introduces herself, J and Whitney Schreck of Whitney S. Consulting (whitisms.com). - **0:46 The lost opportunity.** Product and design work is bombarded by change and the push to go faster, now with AI uncertainty. Earlier episodes covered locus of control; product people use frameworks daily and should use them on themselves. Teams often take an assessment, hold one big meeting and never mention it again. Metsy asks how organizations use these tools well. - **2:24 "I don't fix things."** Whitney slows clients down to ask what they actually want to achieve, because speed misaligns priorities. Desperate clients ask her to fix things or ask whether an assessment will tell them whom to hire; she doesn't treat people as things to fix and is "the people side of the business." - **3:25 Listen first, guide not expert.** She does critical listening up front, learns the metrics clients already use so she complements rather than overlaps, and adds systems where needed. Following Jane Vella, she comes in as "a curious mind and a guide," not the subject-matter expert. - **4:12 Stopping the bleeding.** Most clients call when one department has heavy turnover. She runs a gap analysis between the TriMetrix and what the job actually needs, with managers and HR, then discusses candidates' results. - **5:00 Face the lion.** Because she builds relationships first, managers tell her the truth ("I can't do that again"). She would rather hear the aggravation and fear, then turn it into interview questions, so it isn't taken out on the next hire; often it reveals part of the job that was never fleshed out. - **6:16 The assessment as bridge.** The TriMetrix is a conversation starter; humans are narrative at their core, so she frames results as "a scientific story" lined up against the job description and the manager (whom she usually assesses too). - **7:04 Onboarding and effort over time.** She works with managers through 30-, 60- and 90-day onboarding and skills gaps. Watch effort that ends in results; if effort isn't producing results, coach, or consider whether the person would fit better elsewhere. - **8:13 Pre-mortems.** Instead of only post-mortems, she asks managers how a hire, or the company, would fail ("tell me how your company will go up in flames") and reverse-engineers what is needed. Removing fear brings growth mindset back online. - **9:23 Over-processed and underdeveloped.** Competent, long-tenured people are buried in processes and changing systems with no developmental tools, then asked why they are burned out. Shame and fear of looking weak make leaders bluster or hide; psychological safety comes from relationships and consistent trust. - **10:22 Personality versus skills.** J recalls meeting Metsy at an organization where his predecessor had similar personality attributes; had she been in his interview she might have said, "Nope ... I've seen this guy before." How do organizations avoid personality bias when hiring for skills and experience? - **12:21 Punting to Metsy.** Whitney turns the question to Metsy. Metsy says she was in a stressful situation with her walls up, and J "ran headfirst into the Metsy wall" but responded with kindness and introspection, taking it a day at a time; people who push hard on a boundary don't build trust. - **13:58 Walls or standards?** Whitney suggests walls may be standards: "I don't want to reenter the same scenario again." People with standards make you earn trust, which is healthy. She would handle bias through dialogue, since there is no one-size-fits-all. - **14:59 Adam Grant and compassionate curiosity.** She cites Adam Grant's position on rethinking (a nice framework that doesn't always work, since people slide into prosecutor or judge roles) and her own term, compassionate curiosity: compassion means sitting in discomfort with someone, including yourself, so you notice when you get "bristly." - **16:15 J's first months.** J felt walls from several people, not just Metsy; nobody told him a similar predecessor had been fired. Past J would have started job hunting; instead he told himself daily to be okay being uncomfortable. He didn't force the relationship (the relationships-are-like-farts saying), leaned in as an experienced facilitator, and trust began once he delivered. - **18:52 Self-trust from assessments.** Metsy: assessments like TriMetrix (which includes DISC) build self-trust because they show both what she wants to develop and what is good about her, so she brings confidence into tough situations. When she met J she trusted her stress reaction, then paused, recognized the pattern, set it aside and gave him a chance. - **21:05 Being seen, known, believed.** Whitney: part of psychological safety is being seen, known and believed; a tool is a starting point and a common language. She coached a man with 25 years and no professional development who said he was "hanging on to a fast-moving boat" until retirement. - **22:28 People who endure.** Long-suffering staff under poor executive leadership protect their people without gratitude, then get called back as consultants because succession planning ignores relationships to the work and the knowledge. - **23:20 Bring back story.** Jobs have arcs; she explains TriMetrix results as a car: behavior is the body, motivators the fuel tank, skills the features to add or take away. Great commencement speeches weave in story; a job description is a character you're creating. - **25:02 Relationships matter.** Leadership is lonely because people are taught to figure things out alone. Ping-pong tables won't bring people back to the office; relationships will. Working from home as an entrepreneur, she could avoid going out entirely. - **26:31 Mentors.** Be intentional about relationships: a mentor "pours into" you, whether traditional, peer, or reverse mentorship (someone younger who knows AI). She cites Brené Brown telling Adam Grant that asking for help is an indicator of trust. - **28:00 Peer coaches.** "Stone sharpening stone": peers who meet around one or two goals for the next three months and give requested advice, encouragement or a sounding board, plus three things done well and one to improve, reciprocally. (Body doubling through an inbox with a friend is a different thing.) - **29:32 Emotional piggy bank and win-win.** J: lasting relationships at work or home are win-win; take-take relationships don't last or aren't healthy. Assessments mirror strengths and growth areas you can use to decide whether an organization is the right fit, which doesn't make you or it bad. - **31:30 When the job becomes a life event.** Whitney tells of an executive who left a 20-year job; within nine months his Commanding driving force dropped from primary to situational. He felt like a failure and wanted to force himself back. She calls such transitions liminal spaces and asks clients to hold results loosely (a Sanskrit word she says means "to hold things loosely"); no tool tells everything, and a poor fit isn't a bad person. - **34:00 Roots before growth.** Some seasons are about digging roots: healing, learning, building your "advisory board" of mentors and peer coaches. Pursuing success is fine, but making it your identity hurts. "Time is on your side"; know your season and you don't have to compete or compare. - **36:58 Speak from a place of knowing.** Self-understanding lets you speak truth to power; compassionate curiosity is her starting point. Goals can be small, like the pile of paper on her desk. - **37:52 Pain as a sign of healing.** A Call the Midwife scene: a midwife with a cut hand says pain can be a sign of healing. Society teaches us to numb discomfort; sometimes it means repair. - **38:40 Setup for part 2.** J: assessments are useful for self-reflection even if your organization uses them poorly. Next episode: managing fast change, stress and layoffs after you have these insights. - **40:02 Close.** Metsy says she uses assessments to inform UX personas because "we see the world how we are," thanks Whitney, and looks ahead to the follow-up. ## Standout quotes (verbatim from the Whisper transcript) - 1:48 "you may have been given an assessment in the past, then had a big meeting to go through everyone's results together as a team, and then no one ever talks about it again. That is a lost opportunity." (Metsy) - 2:31 "And then they bring me in and I'm like, let's slow everything down for a second." (Whitney) - 2:46 "I don't fix things." (Whitney) - 3:13 "I don't look at people as things to fix, right." (Whitney) - 3:16 "you don't really have a business without people, either as your customers or the people working with you." (Whitney) - 3:55 "I don't come in as the subject matter expert, I just come in with a curious mind and a guide." (Whitney) - 4:16 "most companies come to me when they're trying to stop the bleeding" (Whitney) - 5:06 "instead of coming in as robot Whitney, who will just fix everything, they tell me the truth." (Whitney, from the VAD-off re-transcription) - 5:56 "face the lion, face the fear and say, who are you and what do you want?" (Whitney) - 6:35 "humans are narrative at our core." (Whitney) - 6:52 "It's a scientific story" (Whitney) - 7:38 "We're observing effort over time. And by effort, I mean effort that ends in result." (Whitney) - 8:58 "tell me how your company will go up in flames." (Whitney) - 9:07 "when you start to eliminate the fear, your growth mindset kicks back online." (Whitney) - 9:20 "I'm working with competent individuals. I'm not working with idiots." (Whitney) - 9:31 "They're either over processed and underdeveloped" (Whitney) - 10:09 "the way you create psychological safety is you build relationships, you build consistency of trust over time." (Whitney) - 11:07 "Nope, Nope, Nope. I've seen this guy before. Not gonna do it again." (J, imagining Metsy in his interview) - 11:51 "how do you avoid the bias of personality" (J) - 12:02 "people can have similar personalities, but it doesn't mean they're the same person." (J) - 12:54 "ran head first into the Metsy wall, that he reacted with kindness and introspection." (Metsy) - 13:05 "Okay, well, let's take it a day at a time." (Metsy, describing J's response) - 13:34 "if they feel a boundary, their instinct is to push on it too hard." (Metsy) - 14:00 "You call them walls, but are they just standards" (Whitney, from the VAD-off re-transcription) - 14:26 "I don't want to reenter the same scenario again." (Whitney) - 14:38 "You have to earn their respect. You're not just getting in." (Whitney) - 15:07 "We are narrative making beings." (Whitney) - 15:09 "I love Adam Grant." (Whitney) - 15:33 "I use a term in my leadership coaching called compassionate curiosity." (Whitney) - 15:43 "if you look at the definition of compassion, it's really to be able to sit in the discomfort with someone" (Whitney) - 16:09 "I'm starting to feel a little bristly right now." (Whitney) - 16:30 "Hey, there was this other guy that was a lot like you and we hated him. In fact, that's why we fired him." (J, describing what no one told him) - 17:29 "It wasn't until months later that I found out the real story." (J) - 17:47 "I'm going to be okay with being a little uncomfortable." (J) - 18:04 "relationships are a bit like farts." (J) - 18:33 "No one else on that team had as much experience and training as I did." (J) - 18:50 "once I was able to deliver on what they hired, that was the beginning of trust." (J) - 18:56 "I think this self-trust is such an important concept." (Metsy) - 19:29 "It's a story of me that also tells me what's great about me" (Metsy) - 20:37 "Jay is not that person. I can recognize the pattern, set it aside and give Jay a chance to build trust with me" (Metsy; "Jay" as transcribed) - 21:08 "reminding yourself of who you are, what you're good at and what you bring to any room that you walk into." (Metsy) - 21:22 "part of psychological safety is being seen, being known, being believed." (Whitney) - 22:09 "Whitney, I'm hanging on to a fast moving boat and I'm on the outside. I'm just trying to ride it until retirement." (Whitney, quoting a client) - 22:15 "can we at least get you inside the boat?" (Whitney) - 22:54 "they protect their people and they do it with no gratitude." (Whitney) - 23:14 "even succession planning sucks in these organizations" (Whitney) - 23:39 "I am the analogy queen" (Whitney) - 24:38 "most of the greatest commencement speeches weave in story." (Whitney) - 24:57 "What is a job description other than this character that we're trying to create and put this person in." (Whitney, partly from the VAD-off re-transcription) - 25:25 "Why are you pouring from an empty well? Leadership is lonely." (Whitney, from the VAD-off re-transcription) - 25:33 "It is lonely because we have taught people to figure out things on their own and you become insular and isolated." (Whitney) - 25:59 "the ping pong tables isn't what's going to do it." (Whitney) - 26:03 "You want people to come back to work, but why? What relationships have you built with them?" (Whitney) - 26:31 "there's something about being sharpened by other people." (Whitney) - 27:15 "reverse mentorship where I'm talking to somebody who's younger than me but has skills and AI" (Whitney) - 27:23 "I have to figure it out on my own and don't tell anybody that I don't know it." (Whitney, from the VAD-off re-transcription) - 27:42 "Can you ask for help? That goes to leadership as well." (Whitney, from the VAD-off re-transcription) - 28:08 "peer coaches are people are stone sharpening stone." (Whitney) - 28:46 "peer coaching is primarily a focus, not body doubling." (Whitney) - 29:09 "Some people are verbal processors." (Whitney) - 29:35 "So it's not one sided. It's reciprocal." (Whitney) - 29:44 "I've used the term emotional piggy bank" (J) - 30:22 "It's the win-win that seems to last forever" (J) - 31:05 "here's some signals in the noise that I can actively use to make myself a little better" (J) - 31:34 "It doesn't mean that organization's bad. It doesn't mean that you're bad." (Whitney) - 31:52 "This is like a rarity when the job itself becomes a life event." (Whitney) - 32:06 "There's a driving force called commanding, which represents leadership" (Whitney) - 32:26 "that really feels like a wounding when you can't do the thing that you once had done" (Whitney) - 32:51 "we're trying to force ourselves back into a previous stage." (Whitney) - 33:00 "You can try to force yourself into an old version of yourself, but that's gone." (Whitney) - 33:39 "What I want you to do is just hold this loosely, see what works, see what you can take from it" (Whitney) - 34:12 "It doesn't mean that they're bad. It doesn't mean that they're good. It's just where they are." (Whitney) - 34:26 "I'm not pushing through the ground like the seedling anymore." (Whitney) - 34:44 "You're working on who you're becoming." (Whitney) - 35:03 "I'm taking care of my roots so that I can be a better version of myself." (Whitney) - 35:32 "time is on your side" (Whitney) - 35:46 "There's nothing wrong with pursuing success, but when you make it your identity, it becomes a problem." (Whitney) - 36:19 "I'm still a tree without all my leaves?" (Whitney) - 36:34 "I can literally be happy for you that you are in spring, that I'm in winter." (Whitney) - 36:51 "I can't operate in winter like I do in summer." (Whitney) - 36:55 "You're trying to tell me to operate like a summer person year round." (Whitney) - 37:05 "You have to have compassionate curiosity." (Whitney) - 38:04 "sometimes writers are the most prolific at saying something that transcends the screen." (Whitney) - 38:24 "just get rid of the discomfort, avoid it, like numb it, get another dopamine hit." (Whitney) - 38:31 "Sometimes that discomfort is telling you something." (Whitney) - 38:58 "even if your organization doesn't use these tools in the most effective way you as an individual can" (J) - 40:11 "I've even used them to inform UX personas for my user groups" (Metsy) - 40:28 "you could use them to create personas as well." (Metsy) ## Books mentioned - No book is named by title. Whitney cites Adam Grant's "position on rethinking" (14:59), which matches his book *Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know* (2021), whose preacher, prosecutor and politician modes resemble her "prosecutor or judge roles"; the episode does not name the book. She also cites Jane Vella, whose dialogue-education approach is set out in books such as *Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach*, but no title is given. ## Things mentioned - People: Whitney Schreck; Jane Vella (adult educator); Adam Grant; Brené Brown (in conversation with Adam Grant); a former executive client whose Commanding driving force changed; a 25-year employee "hanging on to a fast-moving boat"; Whitney's peer-coach friend; a friend who "takes really big swings"; J's unnamed predecessor; one of Metsy's girlfriends (source of "the Metsy wall"). - Organizations: Whitney S. Consulting (whitisms.com); the unnamed organization where Metsy and J met. - Assessments and frameworks: TriMetrix (three sciences explained as car body, fuel tank and features); DISC; driving forces (Commanding; primary versus situational); motivators; locus of control (callback); pre-mortems versus post-mortems; 30-60-90 day onboarding; gap analysis between assessment and job; growth mindset; psychological safety; compassionate curiosity; walls versus standards versus boundaries; rethinking and prosecutor/judge roles; mentors, peer mentors, reverse mentors and peer coaches; body doubling; verbal processors; the emotional piggy bank; win-win versus win-lose relationships; liminal spaces; "hold things loosely" (a Sanskrit word as she says it); seasons and roots; "time is on your side"; speaking truth to power; UX personas informed by assessments. - Media: *Call the Midwife* (TV series). - Other: ping-pong tables as a weak return-to-office lure; commencement speeches; "the greatest person under 40." - Callbacks: earlier episodes on locus of control; "our last episode" on organizations ([[023 Product Strategy - Are You Allowed to Ask Why]]); continues in 025 When Work Never Feels Finished. ## Good work, productivity and career ideas - **Keep using your assessment after the team meeting.** Treat DISC or TriMetrix results as a living career tool for self-reflection, even if your organization drops them (0:46-2:24, 38:40). - **Slow down before you hire.** Get clear on what you actually want, listen to managers' real frustrations, and turn them into interview questions and a sharper job description (2:24-6:16). - **Run a pre-mortem.** Ask how a hire or project could fail and reverse-engineer what you need, to take fear out of the decision (8:13-9:23). - **Judge effort by results over time.** When effort isn't producing results, coach or consider a better-fitting role rather than writing someone off (7:04-8:13). - **Separate the person from the pattern.** Notice when someone reminds you of a past bad experience, set the pattern aside and give them a fair chance (10:22-13:58, 18:52-21:05). - **Don't push on boundaries; build trust.** When you hit a "wall," take it a day at a time, deliver on your role, and let the relationship evolve (12:21-13:58, 16:15-18:52). - **Practice compassionate curiosity.** Notice when you get "bristly" or judgmental and stay curious with yourself and others (14:59-16:15). - **Build an advisory board.** Find a mentor (including a reverse mentor for skills like AI), and a peer coach with one or two three-month goals, reciprocal feedback, and permission to ask for help (25:02-29:32, 34:00). - **Aim for win-win relationships.** Watch deposits and withdrawals in the emotional piggy bank, with colleagues and employers (29:32-31:30). - **Treat a career transition as a season.** In a liminal stage, hold results loosely, tend your roots, and don't tie your identity to visible success (31:30-36:58). - **Use discomfort as a signal.** Don't numb it; ask whether it means healing or repair (37:52-38:40). - **Use assessments to broaden UX personas.** Metsy uses them to check she is designing for people unlike herself (40:02). ## Claims check | Claim | Check | |---|---| | Whitney Schreck's background (15 years with leaders worldwide, master's in global leadership from Fuller, TTI certifications) | Matches the show's guest page and her company site (https://whitisms.com/about/). Those pages say "Fuller University"; her LinkedIn lists Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena (2017-2020), which is the institution's actual name. | | TriMetrix looks at three sciences, including DISC, motivators and skills (23:39, 18:52) | Consistent with her site, which describes TriMetrix as measuring "behaviors, motivators, acumen and skills" (https://whitisms.com/resources/), and with TTI Success Insights' assessment family. "Commanding" is one of TTI's 12 Driving Forces, and "situational" is TTI's middle tier between primary and indifferent; not independently checked against a TTI manual here. | | Jane Vella's approach is to come in as a guide, not the subject-matter expert (3:55) | Broadly consistent. Vella describes the teacher in dialogue education as "resource person, not expert; as guide not professor," but adds that "dialogue does not mean that the educator comes in empty handed" (https://www.globallearningpartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/published-article-A-Spirited-Epistemology.pdf). | | Brené Brown told Adam Grant that asking for help is an indicator of trust (27:20) | Supported. On *The Curiosity Shop* with Adam Grant, Brown says that in asking over 10,000 leaders what builds trust, "the number one thing is always they ask for help"; *Dare to Lead* reports the same finding from a thousand leaders (marble-jar "marble-earning behaviors"). | | Adam Grant's "rethinking" framework with "prosecutor or judge roles" (14:59) | Partly. Grant's *Think Again* describes preacher, prosecutor and politician modes (versus thinking like a scientist); "judge" is Whitney's wording. | | "Pre-mortem" is "a new term" (8:24) | The project premortem was popularized by psychologist Gary Klein (Harvard Business Review, 2007), so it is about two decades old. | | A Sanskrit word (heard as "a Pahigraha"/"abhigraha") means "to hold things loosely" (33:22) | Unclear. The Sanskrit concept usually glossed this way is *aparigraha*, "non-grasping" or "non-possessiveness," one of the yogic yamas; the word as heard is likely a mispronunciation or mishearing of it. | | *Call the Midwife* scene in which a midwife says pain can be a sign of healing (37:52) | Not verified; no episode is named. | | Personal stories (the Metsy wall, J's predecessor, the executive whose driving force changed, the 25-year employee) | Self-reported; not independently verifiable. | | Episode length | RSS 41:04 (2464 s); measured mp3 41:04 (2,464.8 s). | ## Added context - Audio-only RSS episode (not on the YouTube channel). Part 1 of 2 with Whitney Schreck; part 2 is episode 025, When Work Never Feels Finished. The show's guest page lists her as appearing in both.